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MarcoPolo666
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Registered: 07-2007
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
quote:
BruteSentiment wrote:
Ah, good way to avoid answering the question?
To quote somebody : But I guess you can't back up your statement. Per usual.
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3/13/2008, 1:24 am
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irishbum
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Registered: 10-2006
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
you guys cant argue with brute, he is on the Giants payroll
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3/13/2008, 5:52 am
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NorCalAtlFan
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
quote:
BruteSentiment wrote:
Ah, good way to avoid answering the question?
Has every team picked up 3-4 pitchers who have done exceedingly well in the very low minors (Compared to the Giants 5 in 2006) in just one draft, or are they spaced out?
For that matter...has any franchise been able to move through high-performing pitchers at as strong a rate as the Giants, who have led the California League (not 'very low' minors) in ERA for four years running?
I didn't think I was avoiding the question. Can I say for certainty that EVERY team has 3-4 pitchers from that draft that have done exceedingly well in the very low minors, I guess not. Off the top of my head I can think of 4-5, but I honestly don't have the time or energy to look up every teams 2006 draft to be sure. So you got me. Has that "success" at SJ translated too well up the chain? Me, I think not. I'm sure you'll try to disprove me and that's cool. You are afterall the one who proclaimed Frandsen the next Biggio. Good call.
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3/13/2008, 8:53 am
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BruteSentiment
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Location: Bay Area
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should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
Hey, Craig Biggio after two seasons as a pro: .247/.319/.390
Frandsen after two seasons: .259/.319/.364.
BTW, I never said he was the next Biggio, I said he had several parallels to Biggio (mostly with the HBP rate propping up his OBP), but he doesn't have Biggio's power.
I don't really care if you find those 3-4 pitchers in the 2006 draft, but a team that has grabbed five extremely productive pitchers in any single draft.
As far as success up the chain, it does take a while to move things up, but the Giants come into this season with the likelihood that their pitching staff will have no more than three non-homegrown pitchers, and it could be as low as two (Chulk and Zito). And would it be fair to suggest that many feel the Giants didn't even need them?
That's no small feat for any franchise.
The Giants have not been successful in trading it for position players, but frankly, it's one bad trade that looked good on paper that Sabes still gets ripped for that seems to make him gunshy: Three valuable if risky players, only one of whom was a major leaguer (that was part of one of the league's best bullpens) for an All-Star, 27-year old position player at a position of need.
At least then he was trying. But often the people who bash Sabean for not trying anymore are the same ones who bash Sabean for one big bad trade after several successful ones.
Sabean needs to start trading again, and doing it well, and with the pitching staff the Giants have, he may be able to do it. I'm willing to give him at least one rebuilding season to see what he pulls off.
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SFDugout.com - It's back! Top 50 Giants Prospects currently running!
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3/13/2008, 11:31 am
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Every6thDay
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Registered: 10-2006
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
So it's the critics who are holding Sabean back from making deals that will improve the team? Maybe if the critics had focused on criticizing his p-iss poor free agent signings of the past, he would've been less likely to sign the boondoggle that is Zito, over overspend/go after the likes of Dave Roberts.
"At least he was trying" is an interesting phrase of defense, because it essentially paints the person criticized as being a helpless victim of a group of irrational people who just don't understand.
Armando Benitez... at least he was trying.
Shea Hillenbrand... at least he was trying.
Derek Bell... at least he was -- oh, wait, he did that whole Operation Shutdown thing.
Yes, Sabes needs to do what he's only done well once or twice in the past 10.5 years well again if the Giants are to improve. Unfortunately, the Giants have such an imbalance of pitching talent versus hitting talent that trading pitching for hitting doesn't upgrade the team -- they will then lack pitching and will have barely improved their offense.
Why is this? Because the pitching Sabes would likely have to part with includes the likes of Matt Cain and/or Tim Lincecum, if premium offensive talent is to come back in return.
Sabes has basically declared that he will not trade for or sign players with potential/high upside. He wants play-now guys only. In a typical situation, that means giving up play-now guys in return.
The thing is, the Giants are a laughingstock throughout the league. Everybody will be trying Alexis Rios for Tim Lincecum deals because they can. The Giants aren't a threat. They're not 1-3 players away -- they're 13 or 14 away.
But, hey, at least they're trying.
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3/13/2008, 1:26 pm
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22TheThrill
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Registered: 10-2006
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
quote:
Every6thDay wrote:
So it's the critics who are holding Sabean back from making deals that will improve the team? Maybe if the critics had focused on criticizing his p-iss poor free agent signings of the past, he would've been less likely to sign the boondoggle that is Zito, over overspend/go after the likes of Dave Roberts.
"At least he was trying" is an interesting phrase of defense, because it essentially paints the person criticized as being a helpless victim of a group of irrational people who just don't understand.
Armando Benitez... at least he was trying.
Shea Hillenbrand... at least he was trying.
Derek Bell... at least he was -- oh, wait, he did that whole Operation Shutdown thing.
Yes, Sabes needs to do what he's only done well once or twice in the past 10.5 years well again if the Giants are to improve. Unfortunately, the Giants have such an imbalance of pitching talent versus hitting talent that trading pitching for hitting doesn't upgrade the team -- they will then lack pitching and will have barely improved their offense.
Why is this? Because the pitching Sabes would likely have to part with includes the likes of Matt Cain and/or Tim Lincecum, if premium offensive talent is to come back in return.
Sabes has basically declared that he will not trade for or sign players with potential/high upside. He wants play-now guys only. In a typical situation, that means giving up play-now guys in return.
The thing is, the Giants are a laughingstock throughout the league. Everybody will be trying Alexis Rios for Tim Lincecum deals because they can. The Giants aren't a threat. They're not 1-3 players away -- they're 13 or 14 away.
But, hey, at least they're trying.
In defense of Sabean (and this isn't easy), many of those past deals were done to try and stay in it and win a championship around Barry. Obviously the strategy has changed and to his credit he has not done anything "stupid" so far this year, unless you call the Rowand signing stupid. Debatable.
While I agree that part of the problem is Sabean is gun shy after some past mistakes, I also recognize that other teams know what desperate straits the Giants are in and therefore are offering the "Rios for Lincecum" or the "Crede for Cain" joke deals.
While I would NEVER advocate making such deals, maybe it would be in the best interest of the Giants to trade Cain and Lincecum? Of course I'd expect each player to bring in a haul of players similar to what Beane got for Haren.
Let's face it, the Giants are going to stink until the kids from Augusta mature. By then Cain and Lincecum will be nearing free agency. Why not trade them now, fully commit to re-building and get some real talent in the system?
Not a popular idea but one that is not out of the realm of possibilities.
Just sayin'
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Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Leo Durocher
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3/13/2008, 2:08 pm
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Cameron Frye
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Registered: 03-2007
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
quote:
22TheThrill wrote:
Let's face it, the Giants are going to stink until the kids from Augusta mature.
Thrill - Allow me to drive my 4x4 monster truck (theme name "Reality") through this statement.
You are operating under the assumption that the talented crop of kids in Augusta will all mature and eventually take their rightful places in at&t Park by the Bay.
Well, I have 3 California League titles in the last 6 years and the third best overall minor league record in all of baseball over the past 3 years that says most of these kids don't make it past Fres-neck.
There are hundreds of really talented baseball players in all levels of the minor leagues - for all franchises. The players that make it to the top level are those who are either so talented that there is just no stopping them (Tulowitzki, Braun, Fielder, etc) or guys who are nurtured and developed properly every step along the way.
I am just going to stop anyone from using the former as an example right now because guys who are "destined" to make it to the bigs do not start their minor league careers in short-season A ball. (I exclude Villalona from this because the kid is still only 17 years old. If he were American, he would still be playing high school ball.)
As for the latter, I am going to point out the utter futility with which the Giants produce major leaguers who make a significant impact with the big club. Cain and Lincecum come to mind, and I would put them into the first category of players. Past them, every pitcher and every member of the bullpen who was developed by the Giants system would be fortunate to make a major league roster with a team capable of going to the playoffs. Of the guys who have been cast off or traded by Sabean, only Jeremy Accardo has a career path projecting upward. Think about that. 10 years of drafting, 2 starters and 1 reliever. At an average of 50 picks per draft, that's 3 out of over 500 picks.
The sad fact of the matter is that of the guys who are in Augusta (again, Villalona excluded) need to be properly instructed and brought along by coaches who are going to do what is right for the player.
Until that happens on a regular basis in the Giants' farm system - hell, until that happens ONCE in the Giants' farm system - I am going to have to remind you that the chances are pretty good that none of the players on the Augusta team of 2008 will have any positive impact on the W-L record of the SF Giants.
I truly wish it were not true. But it is. The Giants have the most inept General Manager in baseball.
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The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws.
~Rick Wise, 1974
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3/13/2008, 2:34 pm
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22TheThrill
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Registered: 10-2006
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
quote:
Cameron Frye wrote:
quote:
22TheThrill wrote:
Let's face it, the Giants are going to stink until the kids from Augusta mature.
Thrill - Allow me to drive my 4x4 monster truck (theme name "Reality") through this statement.
You are operating under the assumption that the talented crop of kids in Augusta will all mature and eventually take their rightful places in at&t Park by the Bay.
Well, I have 3 California League titles in the last 6 years and the third best overall minor league record in all of baseball over the past 3 years that says most of these kids don't make it past Fres-neck.
There are hundreds of really talented baseball players in all levels of the minor leagues - for all franchises. The players that make it to the top level are those who are either so talented that there is just no stopping them (Tulowitzki, Braun, Fielder, etc) or guys who are nurtured and developed properly every step along the way.
I am just going to stop anyone from using the former as an example right now because guys who are "destined" to make it to the bigs do not start their minor league careers in short-season A ball. (I exclude Villalona from this because the kid is still only 17 years old. If he were American, he would still be playing high school ball.)
As for the latter, I am going to point out the utter futility with which the Giants produce major leaguers who make a significant impact with the big club. Cain and Lincecum come to mind, and I would put them into the first category of players. Past them, every pitcher and every member of the bullpen who was developed by the Giants system would be fortunate to make a major league roster with a team capable of going to the playoffs. Of the guys who have been cast off or traded by Sabean, only Jeremy Accardo has a career path projecting upward. Think about that. 10 years of drafting, 2 starters and 1 reliever. At an average of 50 picks per draft, that's 3 out of over 500 picks.
The sad fact of the matter is that of the guys who are in Augusta (again, Villalona excluded) need to be properly instructed and brought along by coaches who are going to do what is right for the player.
Until that happens on a regular basis in the Giants' farm system - hell, until that happens ONCE in the Giants' farm system - I am going to have to remind you that the chances are pretty good that none of the players on the Augusta team of 2008 will have any positive impact on the W-L record of the SF Giants.
I truly wish it were not true. But it is. The Giants have the most inept General Manager in baseball.
I can firmly assume then Cam that you don't think anything can be done about this team as long as Sabean is the GM? That may be the case but the reality here is that he is under contract and PMG and Co. don't appear to be unhappy with him. So in the meantime what do you think the Giants should do? Sign some veterans? Trade for the likes of Inge or Crede? Or do nothing? Maybe the "do nothing" strategy would be the best since it would limit the risk of adding more cra_ppy contracts to the payroll.
What should the Giants do?
Just askin'
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Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Leo Durocher
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3/13/2008, 2:48 pm
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Cameron Frye
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Registered: 03-2007
Posts: 1194
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Re: should we worry about...clayton kershaw?
quote:
22TheThrill wrote:
I can firmly assume then Cam that you don't think anything can be done about this team as long as Sabean is the GM?
What gave that away? Was it my last sentence or each and every one of the posts I have made on these boards since my return that gave me away? ;-)
quote:
That may be the case but the reality here is that he is under contract and PMG and Co. don't appear to be unhappy with him. So in the meantime what do you think the Giants should do? Sign some veterans? Trade for the likes of Inge or Crede? Or do nothing? Maybe the "do nothing" strategy would be the best since it would limit the risk of adding more cra_ppy contracts to the payroll.
What should the Giants do?
Just askin'
Well, Thrill, The Giants are like that 24-year-old stoner guy who drives the 1997 Mazda that mom and dad gave him after he "graduated" from high school. Dude has no real talent, no motivation to study enough to find and develop a talent, and no real need to fear for his unemployment because mom and dad are giving hi a place to stay and money for food and gas while he "goes to school".
Mom and dad have to come to their senses and send the kid out on his own. That's not going to happen until the car blows up and he sits at home playing video games while he tells mom and dad that they need to shell out $5k for a new car.
Essentially, nothing that Sabean does will help this team. he has to go. Any "suggestions" that I make or other fans make will be meaningless because Sabean is still earning a paycheck and being allowed carte blanche to do with the team as he sees fit.
Roberts, Durham, Winn and Aurilia prove that Sabean is too dumb to rebuild. Frandsen, Schierholtz, Ortmeier and Fred Lewis prove that he's too dumb to rebuild properly.
Aaron Rowand, Barry Zito, Dave Roberts and Randy Winn prove he's too dumb to build through free agency.
Vlad Guerrero proves that he's too dumb to understand the concept of ROI.
And AJ Pierzynski proves that he's too dumb to put aside his ego and keep talented players for the good of the franchise.
Thrill, as long as Brian Sabean is GM, there is NOTHING that can be done to make them contenders again.
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The designated hitter rule is like letting someone else take Wilt Chamberlain's free throws.
~Rick Wise, 1974
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3/13/2008, 3:21 pm
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