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22TheThrill Profile
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Re: …


quote:

KCDrummer82 wrote:

Beane managed to trade Kotsay and Scutaro, a gimp and a non-factor, as well as pillaging the Diamondbacks farm system for Haren and The ChiSox for Swisher. I can't believe that there is NO market for our vets. Sabean might not like the value, but he signed them and put us in this position. He should have to get us out, even if it means getting no return on our initial investment.



Take Roberts for example. The guy can play CF albeit even Sabean said that "he really isn't a center fielder". Even so, the guy is a good 4th outfielder on a contending team. I can't believe a team like the Twins or White Sox wouldn't be interested. Sure I'd expect that the Giants would have to pay a chunk of his salary but at least the Giants might get a prospect or two back in the deal. I'd even be happy with an over-paid relief pitcher for Roberts.

Then look at Winn. Several teams seem to still be looking for a corner outfielder. Sure Winn is overpaid and is a streaky hitter but he's a serviceable starter. I can't believe that a team like the Mets, Cards or Padres would not be interested.

So I'm not sure what is going on. However, I'd say the fastest way to get ahead would be to trade away all your veterans and take some chances on some prospects going forward. For example, I'd pay a chunk of Winn's salary if I could trade him to San Diego for Chase Headley. This team needs to roll the dice and take some chances on some prospects dammit!

Just sayin'


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Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
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1/21/2008, 3:30 pm Link to this post   
 
JayWheels Profile
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The Giants will not give away 10 million to say they got a AA or AAA prospect, who may or may pan out, that is why the vets don't have much value. As long as they owe on AT&T I don't see the Giants throwing large amounts of money into a trade so they can give young guys playing time. I wish they would throw money into deals, but personally I don't see it. Using the Rolen/Glaus trade as an example, would be like trading Durham for Vidro or Roberts for Pierre, not much of a change in talent. Also, not what everyone here is advocating for..... young/younger talent in return. Maybe it is just me, but I see the trade culture in MLB changing alot, not many people like Wade in Houston who will trade 5 guys for one who is clearly past his time and hasn't got a refill on his roid precription lately. More a philosophy among GM's of talent for talent whether young or old, not just the "we need a veteran in our lineup attitude".

Last edited by JayWheels, 1/21/2008, 4:26 pm
1/21/2008, 4:23 pm Link to this post   
 
Bhaakon Profile
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I'll judge this offseason by what happens during the season. Specifically, what kind of PT Schierholtz, Frandsen, et al. receive. I'll praise them for standing pat if it means an opportunity for the younger players; if it means we come out of Spring with Feliz, Roberts, and Aurilia starting everyday, then I'll have some serious issues.
1/21/2008, 4:39 pm Link to this post   
 
Every6thDay Profile
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Re: Thoughts on the offseason so far?


quote:

KCDrummer82 wrote:
Beane managed to trade Kotsay and Scutaro, a gimp and a non-factor, as well as pillaging the Diamondbacks farm system for Haren and The ChiSox for Swisher. I can't believe that there is NO market for our vets. Sabean might not like the value, but he signed them and put us in this position. He should have to get us out, even if it means getting no return on our initial investment.


That's like saying Bush should be the one who has to get us out of Iraq. Yeah, maybe he should be the one, since he got us into this mess. But, as we've seen with both El Prez and El Sabes, neither have the mental capacity, creativity or balls to clean up their own mess.
1/21/2008, 4:43 pm Link to this post   
 
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That doesn't make it ok.

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1/21/2008, 5:13 pm Link to this post   
 
kaliber77 Profile
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Re: Thoughts on the offseason so far?


I have been disappointed thus far on the off-season.

In a vacuum, the Rowand signing isn't terribly ridiculous outside of the years. A three- or four-year contract (with option(s)) would be the reasonable limit. However, it cannot be judged in a vacuum. The state of the franchise required the unreasonable fifth year guaranteed. Just like with Zito's contract, Sabean had to bid against himself.

Also, Sabean will not go into a Spring Training or regular season without "known" commodities. His reliance on veterans is comically well-known, and given the chance between a re-tread ML veteran and a borderline, homegrown minor leaguer, he will pick the veteran each day and twice on Sundays.

So, yes, I am disappointed with the addition of Rowand given the already crowded nature of the outfield. If Sabean hadn't panicked and picked up Roberts last season, or were able to remove Roberts from the team, I wouldn't have an issue with Rowand outside of the fact that he is just another supporting player on a team of supporting players (or worse).

Unless pride and salary (not willing to eat both) are concerns, I don't understand why Sabean cannot unload at least one of the veterans he has signed. While none of them are stars, some of them are reasonable complimentary/role/supporting players. I can understand not being able to move Aurilia or Durham until at least a bit through Spring Training to prove they are healthy and, in Durham's case, that they haven't fallen off the table completely. Roberts should be movable, and must be moved given the addition of Rowand.

I would have been fine with the Vizquel re-signing if the option wasn't of the (easily) vesting variety. He provides excellent defense at a position that has no real upper-level ramifications in regard to player development. The raise was ridiculous, too. He probably wasn't going to find a starting gig anywhere else, and that's the only real reason he wanted to stay. He wants to make shortstop history.

I still expect Feliz to come back with his tail between his legs, accepting a one-year contract. While I'd loathe to have him return, I could understand it from managements' perspective. Good defense and some pop. Both better than what Frandsen or Aurilia could likely bring to the table.

To be honest, the panic-fest that was last off-season has really tied the hands of management for this one. Zito was a PR panic move at a position that didn't need addition. Roberts was another panic move. Aurilia was classic Sabean in overpaying (in both years and dollars) for a past-prime support player being forced into a role beyond his capacity. Durham was mind-!@#$-boggling. I had a mental advent calendar based on his contract expiring and then Sabean goes and extends him two years.

Last season should have been punted to evaluate, much like people believe that this season should be. The difference is that last season, management still had the HR chase and the All-Star game as selling points. This season has no such draw, which is what forces Sabean into even more stupid "stay 'competitive'" contracts that will continue to tie his hands into the future. He needs to suck it up and get out from under those contracts instead of compounding them.

Don't even get me started on the trade speculation that's been bandied about.

The off-season ain't over yet, though, so I'm sure there are worse things to come.

Last edited by kaliber77, 1/21/2008, 5:32 pm
1/21/2008, 5:26 pm Link to this post   
 
Avenge02 Profile
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Re: Thoughts on the offseason so far?


No move is better than a bad move thus this off season to date has been reasonably successful.

I didn’t like the Rowland signing. This roster, in this division, is a last place team for at least the next two years, why make a big investment when you should reasonably expect only a marginal return?

However if, and this is a big if, the front office can convince Bochy to view Roberts and Durham as sunk costs, and let Frandsen, Schierholtz, or maybe Velez get regular starts right out of the gate; that will signify a genuine and refreshing organizational change which will give a glimmer of hope that a rebuild need not take the better part of a decade.

To preempt the argument that benching Roberts and Durham hurts their trade value, I say so what… At this point either player would bring little more than a corpse in return. If either or both should get hot, then perhaps they would net a marginal prospect. In other words, the difference in possible trade return is outweighed by the benefit of the opportunity to critically evaluate the younger players to see if they have a long term future with this organization.
1/21/2008, 6:18 pm Link to this post   
 
Every6thDay Profile
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Re: Thoughts on the offseason so far?


On top of that, pretty much every organization in baseball is smarter, faster, stronger than the San Francisco Giants. In other words, a marginal prospect is a pipe dream for a hot Durham or Roberts, and even the Astros would have to be clinically brain dead to deal a marginal prospect. The value of the draft and homegrown players in the face of the free agent market has been properly readjusted, and with this next generation of GMs, even the Royals are beginning to assemble a more efficient organization.

The Giants are living in the Dark Ages. The word efficiency is even frowned upon by the organization because it has the letter 'y' in it, which is famously associated with the word 'youth.'

But, I agree, no moves (save Rowand, which I didn't like but wasn't as appalling as other moves) at this point is better than moves (which most of us agree would be bad).
1/21/2008, 6:29 pm Link to this post   
 
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jfs6357 wrote:

This brings us to the main dilemma facing management and their ballpark debt: by simply playing the kids, they would probably be able to sort out their future better, but at the same time, they fear people won't come out to see the games *esp. after BB has left.




I think you're right in the FO's thinkg, but I don't think playing the kids or signing vets is going to make one damn bit of difference. When this team is 20 games below .500 in May people will stop coming. There is only one player is baseball that is his own draw and that Barry Lamar. The only other draw is winning.

I know Baer and the FO is big into "marketing" bullshit, but really the average casual fan doesn't really know or care about Aaron Rowand. If they really wanted to sell tickets in '08 without Barry the only real option was throwing a billion dollars at A-Rod. Not one person is going decide to not purchase tickets if Frandsen is at 3B instead of Feliz or if Ortmeier is at 1B. If anything, the hard core die hards will refuse to by them.




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1/21/2008, 9:08 pm Link to this post   
 
kaliber77 Profile
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Thoughts on the offseason so far?


I would have no problem with the benching of Durham and Roberts, but based on his past numbers and the black hole that is the SF Giants lineup, Durham should get a chance to prove himself in Spring Training and maybe the first month of the season. After that, if he shows no improvement, bench the !@#$. Or DFA him if you're ballsy.
1/21/2008, 9:09 pm Link to this post   
 


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