">
Runboard.com
You're welcome.
Please
Read Rules Click for Rules


ALL Open Forum Baseball Mules/HF's ATT Park FAQ&Admin

v

runboard.com       Sign up (learn about it) | Sign in (lost password?)


Page:  1  2  3  4  5 

 
zito4cyyoung Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

HALL OF FAME POSTER
Global user

Registered: 02-2007
Posts: 2223
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

Lionel Mandrake wrote:

quote:

BruteSentiment wrote:
You can't squeeze orange juice from a rock.



Chuck Norris can.




If Chuck tried, Patrick Willis would tackle him and slam him to the ground before a drop of juice hit the floor!

---
Keep Franchise!!
1/18/2008, 2:39 pm Link to this post   
 
MarcoPolo666 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

LIVING LEGEND
Global user

Registered: 07-2007
Posts: 7515
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

22TheThrill wrote:

I still contend that good coaching will bring the best out of a player. You don't throw a young player into a deal just because you don't like his attitude. You don't trade Francisco Liriano in a deal simply because you don't like his attitude. Oh [sign in to see URL] Giants did exactly that.



Actually, Liriano was traded because of concerns about his fragile arm (and the Giants were right to be worried - he missed about half of 2006 and all of 2007). So you think that the only reason that his fielding sucks is because of "poor coaching" ?? (And I don't use "sucks" lightly here - every game I've seen him play in person, he has completely misplayed at least one ball, and generally several.) It's *possible*, but if after 6 years of pro ball, with multiple coaching staffs, he still can't read a ball off the bat or take the right route to the ball ... I think more is involved than "poor coaching". (Heck, one game I was at, he was was almost standing still, he gloved the ball and it POPPED OUT OF THE GLOVE.)


quote:

22TheThrill wrote:
Liriano has but Lewis does have speed and a decent arm, two things you can't teach. And the kid did hit for the cycle last year for crying out loud. I think you got to give the kid a chance this year before you simply ship him out of town because quote, "he won't learn". Again, maybe the organization just hasn't found the "right" player or coach to get through to him.



Again, it could be the coaching, but his fielding is so bad I think there's more to it than that. Leaving aside the coaching aspect, we also have to consider the reality of the current roster. The roster isn't built in a vacuum, or a fantasy league, where you start from scratch with no players or existing contracts. If it was, I would pick this OF :
Schierholtz, Davis, Rowand & Lewis (with Ortmeier as 5th OF)

The Giants currently have these OFs on the roster :
Rowand, Roberts, Winn, Schierholtz, Davis, Lewis and Ortmeier

(Ortmeier is really an OF who is only playing 1B to give him a position to play and to give him ABs. He {so far} hasn't hit well enough to stick as a 1B, and if a spot opens up in the OF, he'll move back to the OF.)

Realistically, I don't think that the Giants will be able to trade both Roberts & Winn before (say) June. They might not be able to trade either. So, with 7 OFs on the roster (or 6 if you don't want to count Ortmeier), which player(s) do you dump or trade? I don't think that the Giants should *dump* (DFA, release) either Winn or Roberts. That's just too much money thrown away, which would cripple the team EVEN MORE over the next couple of years. If there are no takers before Apr, then play them and pray they play well, so that they can be traded for *something* come July.

Anyhow, it comes to prioritization. There just aren't enough available slots in the 25-man roster to keep all the players, and I think that Lewis is lowest on the totem pole. If NOBODY is traded, then Rowand, Winn and Roberts will be on the team, leaving one (*maybe* two) reserve slots. If one of Winn or Roberts is traded, then there are two slots. The question is, which of Schierholtz, Davis, and Lewis do you keep (if there's only one slot) and which two do you keep if there are two slots?

I think that Davis beats Lewis hands-down defensively, and he is also fast. Davis is the only one of the three who is a viable CF backup (of the 3 *youngsters*). Davis hasn't shown as much power potential as Lewis (and Lewis really hasn't shown much), but he's patient & works the count and defensively he's exponentially better than Lewis.

I think that given the choice between Schierholtz and Lewis, Lewis loses out as well. Schierholtz is a darn good RF, has more power potential, and is a switch hitter to boot. (Unfortunately, Nate *really* needs to learn how to take pitches - that's his biggest shortcoming, and it's one that Lewis definitely doesn't have.)

In a fantasy world, I'd like to keep all of the young OFers. In the world we live in, I think that one of the OFers isn't going to make it, and I think that Lewis ranks last, AND (paradoxically) should have pretty high trade value (to anybody who hasn't seen him play, and doesn't realize what a disaster he is on the field).


---
Do not suggest trading for somebody for only two years (unless the Giants dump a crappy contract)
1/18/2008, 5:37 pm Link to this post   
 
MarcoPolo666 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

LIVING LEGEND
Global user

Registered: 07-2007
Posts: 7515
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF



OK, I had to crunch the numbers. I claim that Lewis' "good" stats were due to one or two great games, and that otherwise (i.e., 95-98% of the time) his offensive performance wasn't that outstanding (was generally poor, in fact). Lewis' stat line for the year was :

.287/.374/.408/.782

not horrible, not fantastic - a solid "OK", in fact. A tad above average OPS for the league (with a slightly better AVG, a somewhat better OBP compared to the league, and a SLG that was a somewhat lower than league average - about as much as his OBP was above league average, in fact).

BUT if you take out the ONE game where he had a monster of a day (in Colorado, of course) his stats really don't look that good anymore. He had ONE outstanding game (out of the 58 he played) and it significantly boosted his stats, specifically his SLG (as I mentioned in an earlier post) :

.265/.356/.318/.674

OUCH! I didn't think it would look THAT bad (I thought his OPS would drop to .720 or so). So not only is he a disaster defensively, he's pretty bad offensively too - well under league average for power. Suddenly I'm even more willing to make him part of a trade that would bring back a good AA infielder and hopefully dump some salary as well. IMO, there's really no reason to hold on to him - he's not as good as any other OFer we already have, including Roberts.


---
Do not suggest trading for somebody for only two years (unless the Giants dump a crappy contract)
1/18/2008, 6:16 pm Link to this post   
 
kaliber77 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

MOST VALUABLE POSTER
Global user

Registered: 06-2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 891
Reply | Quote
San Diego looking for corner OF


Schierholtz is not a switch hitter. Also, I think that there will be a possibility of Lewis gaining a spot on the 25-man roster over Schierholtz because Lewis has less options left, and they may want to get Schierholtz more consistent playing time than he would get in SF.
1/18/2008, 6:44 pm Link to this post   
 
22TheThrill Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

HALL OF FAME POSTER
Global user

Registered: 10-2006
Posts: 2774
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

MarcoPolo666 wrote:

quote:

22TheThrill wrote:

I still contend that good coaching will bring the best out of a player. You don't throw a young player into a deal just because you don't like his attitude. You don't trade Francisco Liriano in a deal simply because you don't like his attitude. Oh [sign in to see URL] Giants did exactly that.



Actually, Liriano was traded because of concerns about his fragile arm (and the Giants were right to be worried - he missed about half of 2006 and all of 2007). So you think that the only reason that his fielding sucks is because of "poor coaching" ?? (And I don't use "sucks" lightly here - every game I've seen him play in person, he has completely misplayed at least one ball, and generally several.) It's *possible*, but if after 6 years of pro ball, with multiple coaching staffs, he still can't read a ball off the bat or take the right route to the ball ... I think more is involved than "poor coaching". (Heck, one game I was at, he was was almost standing still, he gloved the ball and it POPPED OUT OF THE GLOVE.)


quote:

22TheThrill wrote:
Liriano has but Lewis does have speed and a decent arm, two things you can't teach. And the kid did hit for the cycle last year for crying out loud. I think you got to give the kid a chance this year before you simply ship him out of town because quote, "he won't learn". Again, maybe the organization just hasn't found the "right" player or coach to get through to him.



Again, it could be the coaching, but his fielding is so bad I think there's more to it than that. Leaving aside the coaching aspect, we also have to consider the reality of the current roster. The roster isn't built in a vacuum, or a fantasy league, where you start from scratch with no players or existing contracts. If it was, I would pick this OF :
Schierholtz, Davis, Rowand & Lewis (with Ortmeier as 5th OF)

The Giants currently have these OFs on the roster :
Rowand, Roberts, Winn, Schierholtz, Davis, Lewis and Ortmeier

(Ortmeier is really an OF who is only playing 1B to give him a position to play and to give him ABs. He {so far} hasn't hit well enough to stick as a 1B, and if a spot opens up in the OF, he'll move back to the OF.)

Realistically, I don't think that the Giants will be able to trade both Roberts & Winn before (say) June. They might not be able to trade either. So, with 7 OFs on the roster (or 6 if you don't want to count Ortmeier), which player(s) do you dump or trade? I don't think that the Giants should *dump* (DFA, release) either Winn or Roberts. That's just too much money thrown away, which would cripple the team EVEN MORE over the next couple of years. If there are no takers before Apr, then play them and pray they play well, so that they can be traded for *something* come July.

Anyhow, it comes to prioritization. There just aren't enough available slots in the 25-man roster to keep all the players, and I think that Lewis is lowest on the totem pole. If NOBODY is traded, then Rowand, Winn and Roberts will be on the team, leaving one (*maybe* two) reserve slots. If one of Winn or Roberts is traded, then there are two slots. The question is, which of Schierholtz, Davis, and Lewis do you keep (if there's only one slot) and which two do you keep if there are two slots?

I think that Davis beats Lewis hands-down defensively, and he is also fast. Davis is the only one of the three who is a viable CF backup (of the 3 *youngsters*). Davis hasn't shown as much power potential as Lewis (and Lewis really hasn't shown much), but he's patient & works the count and defensively he's exponentially better than Lewis.

I think that given the choice between Schierholtz and Lewis, Lewis loses out as well. Schierholtz is a darn good RF, has more power potential, and is a switch hitter to boot. (Unfortunately, Nate *really* needs to learn how to take pitches - that's his biggest shortcoming, and it's one that Lewis definitely doesn't have.)

In a fantasy world, I'd like to keep all of the young OFers. In the world we live in, I think that one of the OFers isn't going to make it, and I think that Lewis ranks last, AND (paradoxically) should have pretty high trade value (to anybody who hasn't seen him play, and doesn't realize what a disaster he is on the field).



Yes there were concerns over Liriano's ability to stay healthy but there were also issues with his attitude and that's why the Giants agreed to trade him IMO.

As for what happens to Lewis, I guess time will tell. I tend to think that Sabean thinks as you do, that Lewis isn't that great. He made the comment that "maybe some other teams would be interested in some of our younger guys", tells me that he'd look at moving someone like Lewis. I personally would rather see the Giants move someone like Winn and/or Roberts abd then give Lewis, Schierholtz and Davis a shot.

Just sayin'

---
------------
Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand.
Leo Durocher



1/18/2008, 7:38 pm Link to this post   
 
MarcoPolo666 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

LIVING LEGEND
Global user

Registered: 07-2007
Posts: 7515
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

kaliber77 wrote:

Schierholtz is not a switch hitter.



Man, it sucks getting old. Ort is the switch hitter. Nate was told to work on improving his perf against LHP (which he has done, significantly). Sheesh - sorry.

---
Do not suggest trading for somebody for only two years (unless the Giants dump a crappy contract)
1/18/2008, 7:54 pm Link to this post   
 
MarcoPolo666 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

LIVING LEGEND
Global user

Registered: 07-2007
Posts: 7515
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

22TheThrill wrote:
  I personally would rather see the Giants move someone like Winn and/or Roberts abd then give Lewis, Schierholtz and Davis a shot.



Hey, so would I. I just don't think it's going to happen.

If *one* of Winn or Roberts can be traded, then I see Lewis getting the shot, and Nate sent to Fresno (but only because Nate has one option year left and none of the others do).

If *one* of the young OFers has to go, I think Lewis is the obvious choice. He's not that special.

---
Do not suggest trading for somebody for only two years (unless the Giants dump a crappy contract)
1/18/2008, 7:56 pm Link to this post   
 
BruteSentiment Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

HALL OF FAME POSTER
Global user

Registered: 10-2006
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2050
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

Bhaakon wrote:

I was actually bored enough to check your facts, and while technically true, you forgot to mention that there's like a dozen different minor league manager of the year awards handed out every year. One by each league at each level as well as awards from Baseball America and The Sporting News. I'm also skeptical as to whether they are handed out to managers who are good at developing talent or just winning managers of winning teams.

Use a manager's work to justify his awards, not vice-versa. "This coach won an award because of X,Y,Z," not "X,Y and Z aren't his fault, he won an award!"



And TheThrill's "Well, he doesn't work hard, so the coaching must be the fault" has any justification?

But if you want justifications:

• Now-Fresno Manager Dan Rohn is the only three-time PCL Manager of the Year award winner ever, and just the second ever to win the award back-to-back, all with the Tacoma Rainiers. He won in 2001 (co-Championship), 2004, and 2005 (Conference Champion). Perhaps the most notable one of these awards was in 2004, when the Mariners gave the Rainiers 62 different players, 156 roster moves and 16 players sent to the majors (most did not return), and he still kept the team was in contention to the last week of the season.

• Lenn Sakata made the playoffs in every year of his Giants career as a manager, including three league Championships (one co-Championship). He did this with rosters rarely stocked with top prospects (perhaps with 2005 being the exception), and continued to turn players without major talent advantages into stars. Both Lewis and Ortmeier mostly made their reputations off of their years in San Jose, a stadium that is one of the worst hitter's parks in minor league baseball according to [sign in to see URL].

• And not that he's a part of the Lewis discussion, but how about Steve Decker. All he's done is broken a league's 50+ year old record for wins. TWICE. And he did it the second time with a team that had exactly one player that was drafted above the fifth round (ironically, one many feel who would've been available in the fifth round), and that supplemental pick missed time and spent the final two months recovering from a broken wrist.

I'd take the coaches the Giants had in their system in 2007 over any other system's managers, including the now-promoted Roberto Kelly and despite weak links Dave Machemer (who was replaced mid-season by former Fresno manager Shane Turner).

---
SFDugout.com - It's back! Top 50 Giants Prospects currently running!
1/19/2008, 1:38 am Link to this post   
 
BruteSentiment Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

HALL OF FAME POSTER
Global user

Registered: 10-2006
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2050
Reply | Quote
San Diego looking for corner OF


Liriano was traded for both reasons in one.

Liriano consistently argued against the Giants recommendations that he stop throwing his slider, his best pitch, because it would do nothing but continue to re-aggravate his injuries. That attitude led to his health problems, so you could equally say either thing was legitimately the cause of the trade.

---
SFDugout.com - It's back! Top 50 Giants Prospects currently running!
1/19/2008, 1:40 am Link to this post   
 
BruteSentiment Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

HALL OF FAME POSTER
Global user

Registered: 10-2006
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2050
Reply | Quote
Re: San Diego looking for corner OF


quote:

Bhaakon wrote:

I was actually bored enough to check your facts, and while technically true, you forgot to mention that there's like a dozen different minor league manager of the year awards handed out every year. One by each league at each level as well as awards from Baseball America and The Sporting News. I'm also skeptical as to whether they are handed out to managers who are good at developing talent or just winning managers of winning teams.

Use a manager's work to justify his awards, not vice-versa. "This coach won an award because of X,Y,Z," not "X,Y and Z aren't his fault, he won an award!"



And TheThrill's "Well, he doesn't work hard, so the coaching must be the fault" has any justification?

But if you want justifications:

• Now-Fresno Manager Dan Rohn is the only three-time PCL Manager of the Year award winner ever, and just the second ever to win the award back-to-back, all with the Tacoma Rainiers. He won in 2001 (co-Championship), 2004, and 2005 (Conference Champion). Perhaps the most notable one of these awards was in 2004, when the Mariners gave the Rainiers 62 different players, 156 roster moves and 16 players sent to the majors (most did not return), and he still kept the team was in contention to the last week of the season.

• Lenn Sakata made the playoffs in every year of his Giants career as a manager, including three league Championships (one co-Championship). He did this with rosters rarely stocked with top prospects (perhaps with 2005 being the exception), and continued to turn players without major talent advantages into stars. Both Lewis and Ortmeier mostly made their reputations off of their years in San Jose, a stadium that is one of the worst hitter's parks in minor league baseball according to [sign in to see URL].

• And not that he's a part of the Lewis discussion, but how about Steve Decker. All he's done is broken a league's 50+ year old record for wins. TWICE. And he did it the second time with a team that had exactly one player that was drafted above the fifth round (ironically, one many feel who would've been available in the fifth round), and that supplemental pick missed time and spent the final two months recovering from a broken wrist.

I'd take the coaches the Giants had in their system in 2007 over any other system's managers, including the now-promoted Roberto Kelly and despite weak links Dave Machemer (who was replaced mid-season by former Fresno manager Shane Turner).

---
SFDugout.com - It's back! Top 50 Giants Prospects currently running!
1/19/2008, 1:41 am Link to this post   
 


QUICK REPLY

Page:  1  2  3  4  5 





You are not logged in (login)

>BACK TO THE TOP<

LINKS
Retrosheet - Baseball Reference - The Baseball Cube
OFFICIAL SF Giants Board - Active Roster - 40 Man Roster
SF 2010 Schedule - SF Gate on ATT Park - KNBR Podcasts
MLB Rumors - Baseball Think Factory - Hardball Times
Fantasy Baseball Hub - Fan Graphs - Cot's Contracts
Minor Giants Daily Recap - Seat Data - SFDugout.com
AZ Giants Spring/ Fall Blog - Your Giants Korea - El Lefty Malo
Chris Haft - Huff Daddy - Inside Giants Clubhouse
McCovey Chronicles - Dodger Blues - Extra Baggs
LINKS OF FAME