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TheMalcontent Profile
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


The only reason Sabean was mentioned in the Mitchell report was because Bonds was on the team. I like every other Giants fan wants Sabean gone for the reasons he should be gone, but jail time on him for something every GM in baseball is guilty for is not what I would want.

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1/16/2008, 12:30 pm Link to this post   
 
Toolrulzz Profile
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


quote:

chefjuan wrote:

quote:

Toolrulzz wrote:

Like many I have been extremely unhappy with almost all of Brian Sabean's personnel decisions over the last 4 or 5 years. But what did most of you want or expect him to do in his situation? Be the only person to out a suspected steroid user and lose all credibility in the clubhouse and front office and alienate the person most responsible for the success of the Giants during their nice run a few years back? Selig is the one who should be receiving the bulk of the negative attention. And it is pretty convenient for him not to back Sabean and to let him get run over. Sabean deserves the blame for a lot of things but how some here and in congress can try and pin this on him is border line ridiculous.



This isn't about Sabean "outing" Bonds. This is about him taking control over the Major League Baseball team he was hired to run. I'm not saying he should have called up Bud* and said, "Hey, I've got Bonds doing 'roid over here." I'm saying he shouldn't have been a !@#$ spineless prick and tried to get Conte--the facking trainer--to try and take control of the clubhouse. He shouldn't have lied straight to the face of the man that signs his checks. He shouldn't have allowed Bonds' posse to infiltrate the Bell and attempt to spread steroids beyond Bonds and the Balco Boys.

As a Giants fan, it's disgusts me to read those stories about Sabean passing the buck to Stan. Stan has no responsibility managing the goings on inside the clubhouse.

I'm not saying Sabean *should* be taking the heat for the steroids era either. But I sincerely HOPE he lies in front of Congress and gets caught and spends a few months behind bars and frees the Giants from the biggest hinderance. I wouldn't feel bad one bit. It's obvious to me he a slimy human being.



Correct me if I'm wrong but it is also a GM's job to delegate power. Like hiring a manager to manage the team and the clubhouse. And maybe having Stan Conte talk to Bonds, someone who he probably had daily contact with and respected, was better than Sabean talking to him directly as he is someone who is not in the clubhouse daily. Maybe he felt his involvement in talking to Bonds directly would not be accepted well. So to keep things somewhat stable, he tried to have a respected member of the clubhouse speak with him. He has been terrible in his personnel decisions and should be gone for those reasons. But he should not take the fall for this.

Last edited by Toolrulzz, 1/16/2008, 12:48 pm


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1/16/2008, 12:46 pm Link to this post   
 
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


I’ll agree with truth number one, but the Giants were one of many teams who had their dirty steroid laundry aired in the Mitchell report. On page 61 of his report Mitchell begins detailing the steroid allegations against Jose Canseco during his time playing with the Oakland A’s beginning in the late 1980’s.

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The section begins on page 109 of the PDF file, where Mitchell presents prior reporting done by various news agencies that A’s management had direct knowledge of this steroid use, despite their later denials to Mitchell during his investigation. One example being LaRussa’s statement on 60 Minutes that Canseco bragged about not having to go to the gym like other players because he had a “helper”. And Chronicle reporting that LaRussa said Jose “changed,” and how he would talk about the juice and others would talk to him about his health. And that LaRussa said that while Canseco continued to get bigger without working out, that LaRussa eventually confronted Canseco about his use. It also speaks about how Oakland coach Dave McKay told the New York Times that Canseco spoke openly about steroids and ignored advice to stop using them. And how he told the Toronto Sun they had one guy who talked about steroids, Jose. Mitchell then incredulously notes that both denied these statements saying they were exaggerated or did not prove direct knowledge. Sandy Alderson was much smarter and said he did not have his epiphany about the steroid problem in baseball until 1998 during the McGwire and Sosa home run chase. Alderson denied statements in Canseco’s book that claimed Alderson knew Canseco was juicing, but Alderson did admit that he considered testing Canseco and other players (Not Big Mac), and that the club had obtained equipment and found a lab before backing off due to concerns about the CBA. Due to Alderson’s current position in MLB, I seriously doubt Bud will investigate any of this, but there certainly appears to be a fair amount of evidence that A’s management knew very well that their steroid fueled teams of this period were exactly that.

To a lesser degree Mitchell details information about the management of the Phillies organization that begins at the bottom of page 114 of the PDF. It addresses numerous articles about Lenny Dykstra adding 30 pounds in the off-season due to “good vitamins”. It also tells of then general manager Lee Thomas confronting Dykstra about steroid suspicions. It also discussed how the Phillies head athletic trainer Jeff Cooper observed the “obvious” steroid use of a Phillies player, and that when he told Thomas about the obvious use, he was told by Thomas to talk to the player directly. Cooper states that he did confront the player, who told him it was none of his business, which ended the matter.

You can then scroll down through the report and find admissions by Phil Garner of direct knowledge of a steroid user as quoted in an article. There are numerous other examples of all of this, talk about the “Clubhouse Code”, or as Tony Gwynn stated “the subject we are not supposed to talk about.”, that point to a pervasive steroid culture in baseball that “No One” in management wanted to confront.

There are plenty of avenues for Selig to explore and investigate outside the Giants as the Mitchell Report opines, and numerous places outside the report. Kevin Towers spoke of the guilt he felt about doing and saying nothing about steroids shortly after Ken Caminiti’s death as lefty blogged at the time:

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"I feel somewhat guilty, because I felt like I knew," Towers says, watching the Padres take batting practice from the balcony outside his spring-training office in suburban Phoenix. "I still don't know for sure, but Cammy came out and said that he used steroids, and I suspected. Selfishly, the guy was putting up numbers, and I didn't do anything about it. That's just the truth."

And if you got honest responses from the general managers of any other team during this period, you would likely get the same results.

Singling the Giants out for punishment in this matter is ridiculous, but it is typical of baseball’s scapegoat reaction to its steroid problem, and typical of the actions of the craven commissioner who presides over the sport. Could the Giants have kept their clubhouse in order and prevented BALCO?

Perhaps, but the same argument could certainly applied to the A’s, the Phillies, and on and on throughout the league.

Instead of doing what is right for baseball, and following Mitchell’s recommendation to forgo punishment for past transgressions, while focusing on moving forward with prevention and education, Selig is now scrambling to throw blame everywhere beside himself. I believe Selig has a sign on is desk that says, “The Buck Stops Elsewhere”.

My contempt for him grows every day.
 


Last edited by billabong2, 1/16/2008, 1:53 pm


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1/16/2008, 1:47 pm Link to this post   
 
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


quote:

billabong2 wrote:

Singling the Giants out for punishment in this matter is ridiculous, but it is typical of baseball’s scapegoat reaction to its steroid problem, and typical of the actions of the craven commissioner who presides over the sport. Could the Giants have kept their clubhouse in order and prevented BALCO?

Perhaps, but the same argument could certainly applied to the A’s, the Phillies, and on and on throughout the league.

Instead of doing what is right for baseball, and following Mitchell’s recommendation to forgo punishment for past transgressions, while focusing on moving forward with prevention and education, Selig is now scrambling to throw blame everywhere beside himself. I believe Selig has a sign on is desk that says, “The Buck Stops Elsewhere”.

My contempt for him grows every day.
 



I could not agree more. That is exactly the way I see it and feel about it but put in much better terms. Well said.

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1/16/2008, 1:55 pm Link to this post   
 
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Congress and the SF Giants


just what could Selig do to sabean or mcgowan anyway?

If selig attempts to screw over either one and unless tey get one hell of hush money offer they can take slig and baseball to court and blow everything wide open. Both Sabean and McGowan knows where plenty of baseballs skeletons are buried. If either one takes Selig and baseball to court, this could turn out even worst then anything congress could do to baseball for not penalizing either MCgowan or Sabean.

I just don't see Selig being able to do much about either of them.

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1/16/2008, 2:14 pm Link to this post   
 
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


quote:

Toolrulzz wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong but it is also a GM's job to delegate power. Like hiring a manager to manage the team and the clubhouse. And maybe having Stan Conte talk to Bonds, someone who he probably had daily contact with and respected, was better than Sabean talking to him directly as he is someone who is not in the clubhouse daily. Maybe he felt his involvement in talking to Bonds directly would not be accepted well. So to keep things somewhat stable, he tried to have a respected member of the clubhouse speak with him. He has been terrible in his personnel decisions and should be gone for those reasons. But he should not take the fall for this.



You don't delegate your trainer to run your clubhouse. The trainer is support staff. He's basically a line employee. His only responsibility is to the rest of the training staff and the health of the employees/athletes.

Say I were the GM of a restaurant. I wouldn't delegate my fish cook to deal with an unruly customer. I wouldn't ask my bartender to look at a faulty fridge in the kitchen. I wouldn't ask a server to take care of an unpaid bill from a purveyor. These are essentially the same as what Sabean did with Stan.

Sabean is a bad manager, and his actions in the Mitchell Report illustrate that perfectly. This doesn't even have to be about steroids! This could have been about getting sweatshop-made cleats or endorsements or advirtising or hookers. Doesn't change the actions and attitude that Sabean displayed.

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1/16/2008, 2:32 pm Link to this post   
 
chefjuan Profile
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


quote:

TheMalcontent wrote:

The only reason Sabean was mentioned in the Mitchell report was because Bonds was on the team. I like every other Giants fan wants Sabean gone for the reasons he should be gone, but jail time on him for something every GM in baseball is guilty for is not what I would want.



Lock him up!

He shouldn't d be jailed for what he did. I just hope he lies and gets caught and our problem goes away. It's purely selfish reasons. He is a slime ball, so the chances of him lying to congress are pretty good. I've got my fingers crossed!!!




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1/16/2008, 2:38 pm Link to this post   
 
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


quote:

chefjuan wrote:

quote:

Toolrulzz wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong but it is also a GM's job to delegate power. Like hiring a manager to manage the team and the clubhouse. And maybe having Stan Conte talk to Bonds, someone who he probably had daily contact with and respected, was better than Sabean talking to him directly as he is someone who is not in the clubhouse daily. Maybe he felt his involvement in talking to Bonds directly would not be accepted well. So to keep things somewhat stable, he tried to have a respected member of the clubhouse speak with him. He has been terrible in his personnel decisions and should be gone for those reasons. But he should not take the fall for this.



You don't delegate your trainer to run your clubhouse. The trainer is support staff. He's basically a line employee. His only responsibility is to the rest of the training staff and the health of the employees/athletes.

Say I were the GM of a restaurant. I wouldn't delegate my fish cook to deal with an unruly customer. I wouldn't ask my bartender to look at a faulty fridge in the kitchen. I wouldn't ask a server to take care of an unpaid bill from a purveyor. These are essentially the same as what Sabean did with Stan.

Sabean is a bad manager, and his actions in the Mitchell Report illustrate that perfectly. This doesn't even have to be about steroids! This could have been about getting sweatshop-made cleats or endorsements or advirtising or hookers. Doesn't change the actions and attitude that Sabean displayed.



I never said that Conte was delegated to run the clubhouse. I said that, possibly, Sabean went to Conte and asked him to speak to Bonds because maybe Conte could relate to Barry better than he could. It's just speculation. We are both speculating on what Sabean was thinking and what his motives were. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Much like many Giants fans (me included) have given Barry the benefit of the doubt throughout the BALCO ordeal.

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1/16/2008, 2:40 pm Link to this post   
 
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


It's beyond speculation really.

This is from ]Page 122 of the Mitchell Report (170 of the PDF). Conte voicing his concerns to Sabean about Anderson and Shields presence in the clubhouse:


quote:

Sabean told Conte that if Conte objected to Anderson and Shields being in the clubhouse, Conte should order them out himself. Conte said he would do this if Sabean would support him when Bonds complained, which Conte believed would be the result of his actions.

Sabean did not respond to this request for support, leading Conte to believe that Sabean would not do so if Bonds protested. Conte therefore decided to take no action to deny Anderson or Shields access to restricted areas.



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1/16/2008, 3:24 pm Link to this post   
 
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Re: Congress and the SF Giants


quote:


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sabean told Conte that if Conte objected to Anderson and Shields being in the clubhouse, Conte should order them out himself. Conte said he would do this if Sabean would support him when Bonds complained, which Conte believed would be the result of his actions.

Sabean did not respond to this request for support, leading Conte to believe that Sabean would not do so if Bonds protested. Conte therefore decided to take no action to deny Anderson or Shields access to restricted areas.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Why Sabean should be disiplined:
1. The Mitchell report shows that he had actual notice that there were illicit activities ongoing in the clubhouse

2. As GM he clearly had the authority to rectify the problem of stroid use/distribution in the clubhouse but didn't.

The result: Soiling the reputation of the organization and adding another sorry entry on his (hopefully soon to be needed!) resume.
1/16/2008, 4:23 pm Link to this post   
 


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