Congress and the SF Giants https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/t15475 Runboard| Congress and the SF Giants en-us Tue, 19 Mar 2024 10:36:00 +0000 Tue, 19 Mar 2024 10:36:00 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452512,from=rss#post452512https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452512,from=rss#post452512The Reason boys nailed it in this WaPo piece: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/18/AR2008011802871.html First, Major League Baseball, along with other sports leagues and private-sector ventures, simply should not be required to submit their business plans -- much less blood and urine samples -- to Congress or any other government body. (The flip-side of this, of course, is that MLB and other sports leagues should not be allowed to extract extortionate contracts for stadiums and services from all-too-pliant state and local governments.) Tierney and other elected officials have argued that baseball's exemption from federal antitrust legislation gives Congress the right to meddle in the game's affairs. That exemption, based on a 1922 court decision that ridiculously found that pro baseball did not constitute interstate commerce, has caused more harm than good by allowing owners to collude against players and prospective competitor leagues and by allowing cartel arrangements and restraints on trade unimaginable in other industries. While it should be repealed, it hardly gives Congress a warrant to micromanage MLB the way George Steinbrenner has his New York Yankees. For more on the Hill, featuring dopey Chris Shays, read the whole thing. nondisclosed_email@example.com (billabong2)Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:29:24 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452509,from=rss#post452509https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452509,from=rss#post452509Selig = Hag fish... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb2EOP3ohnE It would explain all the nose picking...nondisclosed_email@example.com (AXavier)Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:59:26 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452472,from=rss#post452472https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452472,from=rss#post452472Your last sentence tied everything back to Selig. Nicely done.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Lionel Mandrake)Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:05:16 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452470,from=rss#post452470https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452470,from=rss#post452470Not to change the subject, but did you know that certain Slime Eels can actually live on land ? I was surprised to learn that too, but it's true. See for yourself: Slime Eel also known as the Hag fish  Hagfish Lineage: Kingdom Animalia Phylum Chordata Class Myxini Order Myxiniformes Family Myxinidae How can you tell a hagfish if you see one? They look kind of like eels or lamprey, being long, slender and light pinkish grey in colour. They are elegantly simple in design, having no fins (except for a primitive tail fin), knobby protrusions, and few accessories to speak of. Their eyes are reduced but they have good senses of touch and smell. They have a ring of short sensitive tentacles around their mouths. Large slime glands line their sides along the length of their bodies. What do they do? For a long time, people thought of hagfish as scavengers and parasites, probably due to their habit or burrowing into dead or dying animals and eating them from the inside out. In fact, most of their diet is made up of marine worms and other invertebrates. Scientists used to think the hagfish looked primitive as a result of the loss of characteristics often associated with being a parasite. Another ability that had won fame for hagfish is the mass amounts of slime almost instantly secreted as a defense mechanism. Where are they found? Hagfish can be found in the chilly waters of the antitropical north and south. They tend to live on and in muddy sea floors in very dense groups (up to 15,000 in an area). Because females tend to produce large eggs in small numbers, their population sizes suggest a low death rate. What kind of tricks can they do? One very useful trick hagfish have developed is the ability to tie themselves in knots, and be able to slide in and out of this knot. This can be used to escape predators, to clean themselves of slime, and to work their way into a carcass. They can also sneeze to unclog their nostrils of their own slime. What else makes them special? Hagfish don't really have jaws. Instead they have two pairs of rasps on top of a tongue. They pull meat into their mouths with the tongue, then tear it off the prey with the rasps. Newly hatched hagfish look just like the adults, but have both male and female sex organs. When they mature, they will be either male or female, but have the ability to change from one to the other if the population structure demands it. They have a very low metabolism. Once they eat, they may not have to again for up to seven months. Although hagfish have a partial skull, they have no back bone, so are not true vertebrates. What skeleton they do have is made of cartilage. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Nine Buck)Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:03:58 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452448,from=rss#post452448https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452448,from=rss#post452448When a lot of money is involved, anyone can be a slim ball. Most Owners in sports are shady in some regard, and executives also. Commissioners are pawns of the owners, so we expect them to be clean? David Stern has turned Basketball into a thugs game, and then tried to clean up their image. Its like taking a prison and putting suits on the inmates in order to get sponsors. Seligs transgressions are well documented here, but the bottom line is Sabean, Selig, other would have done something if they could have done so without losing tens of millions of dollars, maybe even billions. I'd say Goodell has been pretty good so far, but the NFL is still as crooked as they come. Is is a coincidence Bob Kraft the Owner of the Patriots also sits on the board of directors at Viacom? Viacom owns CBS, same CBS that broadcasts Patriots games. Only after Viacom split was Bob Kraft added to the board, as to avoid any appearance of impropriety. Money has ruined sports.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Acrosstic)Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:03:06 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452370,from=rss#post452370https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452370,from=rss#post452370Responsibility for reacting quicker? Not good enough. Taken responsibility for turning a blind eye? That's better. If you're going to infer possible punishment to teams, then punish yourself, Commish.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Lionel Mandrake)Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:04:37 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452365,from=rss#post452365https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452365,from=rss#post452365quote:Lionel Mandrake wrote:  I would come around about 45 degrees on Bud if he manned up and said, "Fans, Congress, players: all of this has happened on my watch. I accept part of the blame. Now, let's go about making it right." From an article 2 days ago, discussing the Congressional hearings (Link ) : "Do I wish we could have reacted quicker? Should we have? One could make the case," the commissioner said. "All of us have to take responsibility, starting with me." In his opening statement, Selig vowed to develop a program "to require top prospects for the major league draft to submit to drug testing before the (amateur) draft." nondisclosed_email@example.com (MarcoPolo666)Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:16:11 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452356,from=rss#post452356https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452356,from=rss#post452356apparently. nothing will get rid of this putz as he was extended to 2012. his lack of leadership and willingness to blame others astounds me. Makes me wish for a David Stern or Roger Goodellnondisclosed_email@example.com (etienne1977)Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:25:34 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452352,from=rss#post452352https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452352,from=rss#post452352Teh worst Commish in sports and possibly EVER. Yes, worse than Bateman. I would come around about 45 degrees on Bud if he manned up and said, "Fans, Congress, players: all of this has happened on my watch. I accept part of the blame. Now, let's go about making it right." But no, the tube worm constantly deflects any responsibility and blows like a damn leaf in the wind. What's it going to take to get rid of this putz?nondisclosed_email@example.com (Lionel Mandrake)Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:59:54 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452337,from=rss#post452337https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452337,from=rss#post452337I also think we shouldn’t lose sight of the real enemy: To quote Tanner: Crud. Does that booger-eatin' spaz make me want to puke. Fifty bucks the Selig kid picks his nose. All right, kid, take your time.                 Fifty bucks more says he eats it. Don't do it, kid!                 That kid will eat anything!            He was hungry. Not the right hand~! http://www.examiner.com/blogs/Yeas_and_Nays/2008/1/16/Bud-goes-to-work nondisclosed_email@example.com (billabong2)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:33:02 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452336,from=rss#post452336https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452336,from=rss#post452336I think it is important to remember that at the point the quoted passage was made, Conte did not base or portray his concerns about the trainers to Sabean as being steroid related, but instead he protested that they were unqualified and did not belong in restricted areas. Sabean seemingly made the sensible response to the trainer, telling him if he felt that way he should expel the trainers from the clubhouse. Conte claims he never did this because Sabean did not respond to his question about supporting him if Bonds protested his action. This may or may not be true, we really have no way of knowing, but I really don’t see how this matters in any case. Sabean gave Conte the option to expel the trainers and he chose not to do so as to avoid confronting Bonds. In fact we do not hear of any concerns about steroid use in the passage until the meeting between Hallinan, Nugent and Conte during winter 2001, during which drugs were not explicitly discussed, but Nugent allegedly alluded that they “knew what Conte was talking about” regarding security concerns with Bonds entourage. According to the Mitchell Report, the Giants then discussed Barry’s entourage during contract negotiations, and assurances were made to Barry that their access would remain consistent with the past. It was not until August 2002 that Conte first approached Sabean with direct concerns about Anderson and steroids. At this point Sabean suggested Conte approach Bonds and Anderson about the steroid allegations. While Conte protested that he did not feel this was his duty, according to the Mitchell Report on Page 67, Sabean gave the same advice to his trainer that the Phillies General Manager gave trainer Jeff Cooper when he approached him with concerns about steroid use: Philadelphia’s then-head athletic trainer Jeff Cooper told us that during this period he observed a Phillies player whose use of steroids was “obvious.” Cooper would not divulge the player’s identity to us. He told us that he approached the general manager (apparently Thomas) to report his concerns, and the general manager advised Cooper that he should raise the subject with the player directly. Cooper then did raise the issue with the player, who said it was none of Cooper’s business. The matter went no further. Unlike Cooper, Conte chose not to confront the player involved, and while it may not be proper to ask trainers to do this, it was certainly not an unprecedented action in baseball. Sabean did according to Mitchell have Conte take his concerns about Anderson to a local DEA agent. The DEA agent told Conte, who then told Sabean, that there was no information at the DEA about problems with Greg Anderson and drugs. Sabean then reportedly told Conte that if the Anderson was involved with drugs, he felt the government would know, and left the issue there. FSS is dead on with his assessment IMO, and Axavier gets props for making me wipe the coffee off my monitor with the Sarbanes Oxley reference. In regard to wanting blood, I can understand people wanting Sabean out, but running him out of town for his role in not stopping Bonds from committing his “alleged” transgressions seems to be a bit of a stretch.          Sabean is likely to be fined for failing to inform MLB of what he knew, and perhaps suspended, but I can’t see much more coming from this problem nondisclosed_email@example.com (billabong2)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:31:14 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452333,from=rss#post452333https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452333,from=rss#post452333The angry mob wants blood. I wonder if we will get the MLB version of Sarbanes Oxley? Every GM has to sign off on internal PED control system and will be held accountable for violationsnondisclosed_email@example.com (AXavier)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:43:06 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452332,from=rss#post452332https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452332,from=rss#post452332Does anyone think any single GM in baseball would have outed Bonds? Can you imagine the fallout for the Giants if Sabean had? Giants were in a new ballpark with a ton of debt, and let's face it, Giants fans blow...they were coming for Bonds, nothing else...outting Bonds would have cost the Giants 10s of millions, maybe even a 100 million. Also, what F.A. would ever come to Giants if the GM is outting people? I don't agree with Sabeans lack of action, but it's obvious why he did it...but let's be honest here, Baer, Magowan...they all knew. Everyone in the stands knew. All the reporters knew...and that goes for all GMs, fans, and owners...they all knew they had juiced players and chose to do nothing.nondisclosed_email@example.com (FSS)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:35:28 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452331,from=rss#post452331https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452331,from=rss#post452331quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sabean told Conte that if Conte objected to Anderson and Shields being in the clubhouse, Conte should order them out himself. Conte said he would do this if Sabean would support him when Bonds complained, which Conte believed would be the result of his actions. Sabean did not respond to this request for support, leading Conte to believe that Sabean would not do so if Bonds protested. Conte therefore decided to take no action to deny Anderson or Shields access to restricted areas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why Sabean should be disiplined: 1. The Mitchell report shows that he had actual notice that there were illicit activities ongoing in the clubhouse 2. As GM he clearly had the authority to rectify the problem of stroid use/distribution in the clubhouse but didn't. The result: Soiling the reputation of the organization and adding another sorry entry on his (hopefully soon to be needed!) resume.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Avenge02)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:23:09 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452327,from=rss#post452327https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452327,from=rss#post452327It's beyond speculation really. This is from Page 122 of the Mitchell Report (170 of the PDF). Conte voicing his concerns to Sabean about Anderson and Shields presence in the clubhouse: quote:Sabean told Conte that if Conte objected to Anderson and Shields being in the clubhouse, Conte should order them out himself. Conte said he would do this if Sabean would support him when Bonds complained, which Conte believed would be the result of his actions. Sabean did not respond to this request for support, leading Conte to believe that Sabean would not do so if Bonds protested. Conte therefore decided to take no action to deny Anderson or Shields access to restricted areas.nondisclosed_email@example.com (chefjuan)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:24:52 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452326,from=rss#post452326https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452326,from=rss#post452326quote:chefjuan wrote: quote:Toolrulzz wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but it is also a GM's job to delegate power. Like hiring a manager to manage the team and the clubhouse. And maybe having Stan Conte talk to Bonds, someone who he probably had daily contact with and respected, was better than Sabean talking to him directly as he is someone who is not in the clubhouse daily. Maybe he felt his involvement in talking to Bonds directly would not be accepted well. So to keep things somewhat stable, he tried to have a respected member of the clubhouse speak with him. He has been terrible in his personnel decisions and should be gone for those reasons. But he should not take the fall for this. You don't delegate your trainer to run your clubhouse. The trainer is support staff. He's basically a line employee. His only responsibility is to the rest of the training staff and the health of the employees/athletes. Say I were the GM of a restaurant. I wouldn't delegate my fish cook to deal with an unruly customer. I wouldn't ask my bartender to look at a faulty fridge in the kitchen. I wouldn't ask a server to take care of an unpaid bill from a purveyor. These are essentially the same as what Sabean did with Stan. Sabean is a bad manager, and his actions in the Mitchell Report illustrate that perfectly. This doesn't even have to be about steroids! This could have been about getting sweatshop-made cleats or endorsements or advirtising or hookers. Doesn't change the actions and attitude that Sabean displayed. I never said that Conte was delegated to run the clubhouse. I said that, possibly, Sabean went to Conte and asked him to speak to Bonds because maybe Conte could relate to Barry better than he could. It's just speculation. We are both speculating on what Sabean was thinking and what his motives were. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Much like many Giants fans (me included) have given Barry the benefit of the doubt throughout the BALCO ordeal.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Toolrulzz)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:40:34 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452325,from=rss#post452325https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452325,from=rss#post452325quote:TheMalcontent wrote: The only reason Sabean was mentioned in the Mitchell report was because Bonds was on the team. I like every other Giants fan wants Sabean gone for the reasons he should be gone, but jail time on him for something every GM in baseball is guilty for is not what I would want. Lock him up! He shouldn't d be jailed for what he did. I just hope he lies and gets caught and our problem goes away. It's purely selfish reasons. He is a slime ball, so the chances of him lying to congress are pretty good. I've got my fingers crossed!!! nondisclosed_email@example.com (chefjuan)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:38:02 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452324,from=rss#post452324https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452324,from=rss#post452324quote:Toolrulzz wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but it is also a GM's job to delegate power. Like hiring a manager to manage the team and the clubhouse. And maybe having Stan Conte talk to Bonds, someone who he probably had daily contact with and respected, was better than Sabean talking to him directly as he is someone who is not in the clubhouse daily. Maybe he felt his involvement in talking to Bonds directly would not be accepted well. So to keep things somewhat stable, he tried to have a respected member of the clubhouse speak with him. He has been terrible in his personnel decisions and should be gone for those reasons. But he should not take the fall for this. You don't delegate your trainer to run your clubhouse. The trainer is support staff. He's basically a line employee. His only responsibility is to the rest of the training staff and the health of the employees/athletes. Say I were the GM of a restaurant. I wouldn't delegate my fish cook to deal with an unruly customer. I wouldn't ask my bartender to look at a faulty fridge in the kitchen. I wouldn't ask a server to take care of an unpaid bill from a purveyor. These are essentially the same as what Sabean did with Stan. Sabean is a bad manager, and his actions in the Mitchell Report illustrate that perfectly. This doesn't even have to be about steroids! This could have been about getting sweatshop-made cleats or endorsements or advirtising or hookers. Doesn't change the actions and attitude that Sabean displayed. nondisclosed_email@example.com (chefjuan)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:32:25 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452323,from=rss#post452323https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452323,from=rss#post452323just what could Selig do to sabean or mcgowan anyway? If selig attempts to screw over either one and unless tey get one hell of hush money offer they can take slig and baseball to court and blow everything wide open. Both Sabean and McGowan knows where plenty of baseballs skeletons are buried. If either one takes Selig and baseball to court, this could turn out even worst then anything congress could do to baseball for not penalizing either MCgowan or Sabean. I just don't see Selig being able to do much about either of them.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Xellos007)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:14:55 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452321,from=rss#post452321https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452321,from=rss#post452321quote:billabong2 wrote: Singling the Giants out for punishment in this matter is ridiculous, but it is typical of baseball’s scapegoat reaction to its steroid problem, and typical of the actions of the craven commissioner who presides over the sport. Could the Giants have kept their clubhouse in order and prevented BALCO? Perhaps, but the same argument could certainly applied to the A’s, the Phillies, and on and on throughout the league. Instead of doing what is right for baseball, and following Mitchell’s recommendation to forgo punishment for past transgressions, while focusing on moving forward with prevention and education, Selig is now scrambling to throw blame everywhere beside himself. I believe Selig has a sign on is desk that says, “The Buck Stops Elsewhere”. My contempt for him grows every day.   I could not agree more. That is exactly the way I see it and feel about it but put in much better terms. Well said.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Toolrulzz)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:55:37 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452320,from=rss#post452320https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452320,from=rss#post452320I’ll agree with truth number one, but the Giants were one of many teams who had their dirty steroid laundry aired in the Mitchell report. On page 61 of his report Mitchell begins detailing the steroid allegations against Jose Canseco during his time playing with the Oakland A’s beginning in the late 1980’s. http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf The section begins on page 109 of the PDF file, where Mitchell presents prior reporting done by various news agencies that A’s management had direct knowledge of this steroid use, despite their later denials to Mitchell during his investigation. One example being LaRussa’s statement on 60 Minutes that Canseco bragged about not having to go to the gym like other players because he had a “helper”. And Chronicle reporting that LaRussa said Jose “changed,” and how he would talk about the juice and others would talk to him about his health. And that LaRussa said that while Canseco continued to get bigger without working out, that LaRussa eventually confronted Canseco about his use. It also speaks about how Oakland coach Dave McKay told the New York Times that Canseco spoke openly about steroids and ignored advice to stop using them. And how he told the Toronto Sun they had one guy who talked about steroids, Jose. Mitchell then incredulously notes that both denied these statements saying they were exaggerated or did not prove direct knowledge. Sandy Alderson was much smarter and said he did not have his epiphany about the steroid problem in baseball until 1998 during the McGwire and Sosa home run chase. Alderson denied statements in Canseco’s book that claimed Alderson knew Canseco was juicing, but Alderson did admit that he considered testing Canseco and other players (Not Big Mac), and that the club had obtained equipment and found a lab before backing off due to concerns about the CBA. Due to Alderson’s current position in MLB, I seriously doubt Bud will investigate any of this, but there certainly appears to be a fair amount of evidence that A’s management knew very well that their steroid fueled teams of this period were exactly that. To a lesser degree Mitchell details information about the management of the Phillies organization that begins at the bottom of page 114 of the PDF. It addresses numerous articles about Lenny Dykstra adding 30 pounds in the off-season due to “good vitamins”. It also tells of then general manager Lee Thomas confronting Dykstra about steroid suspicions. It also discussed how the Phillies head athletic trainer Jeff Cooper observed the “obvious” steroid use of a Phillies player, and that when he told Thomas about the obvious use, he was told by Thomas to talk to the player directly. Cooper states that he did confront the player, who told him it was none of his business, which ended the matter. You can then scroll down through the report and find admissions by Phil Garner of direct knowledge of a steroid user as quoted in an article. There are numerous other examples of all of this, talk about the “Clubhouse Code”, or as Tony Gwynn stated “the subject we are not supposed to talk about.”, that point to a pervasive steroid culture in baseball that “No One” in management wanted to confront. There are plenty of avenues for Selig to explore and investigate outside the Giants as the Mitchell Report opines, and numerous places outside the report. Kevin Towers spoke of the guilt he felt about doing and saying nothing about steroids shortly after Ken Caminiti’s death as lefty blogged at the time:  http://leftymalo.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_archive.html "I feel somewhat guilty, because I felt like I knew," Towers says, watching the Padres take batting practice from the balcony outside his spring-training office in suburban Phoenix. "I still don't know for sure, but Cammy came out and said that he used steroids, and I suspected. Selfishly, the guy was putting up numbers, and I didn't do anything about it. That's just the truth." And if you got honest responses from the general managers of any other team during this period, you would likely get the same results. Singling the Giants out for punishment in this matter is ridiculous, but it is typical of baseball’s scapegoat reaction to its steroid problem, and typical of the actions of the craven commissioner who presides over the sport. Could the Giants have kept their clubhouse in order and prevented BALCO? Perhaps, but the same argument could certainly applied to the A’s, the Phillies, and on and on throughout the league. Instead of doing what is right for baseball, and following Mitchell’s recommendation to forgo punishment for past transgressions, while focusing on moving forward with prevention and education, Selig is now scrambling to throw blame everywhere beside himself. I believe Selig has a sign on is desk that says, “The Buck Stops Elsewhere”. My contempt for him grows every day.   nondisclosed_email@example.com (billabong2)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 13:47:16 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452319,from=rss#post452319https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452319,from=rss#post452319quote:chefjuan wrote: quote:Toolrulzz wrote: Like many I have been extremely unhappy with almost all of Brian Sabean's personnel decisions over the last 4 or 5 years. But what did most of you want or expect him to do in his situation? Be the only person to out a suspected steroid user and lose all credibility in the clubhouse and front office and alienate the person most responsible for the success of the Giants during their nice run a few years back? Selig is the one who should be receiving the bulk of the negative attention. And it is pretty convenient for him not to back Sabean and to let him get run over. Sabean deserves the blame for a lot of things but how some here and in congress can try and pin this on him is border line ridiculous. This isn't about Sabean "outing" Bonds. This is about him taking control over the Major League Baseball team he was hired to run. I'm not saying he should have called up Bud* and said, "Hey, I've got Bonds doing 'roid over here." I'm saying he shouldn't have been a fucking spineless prick and tried to get Conte--the facking trainer--to try and take control of the clubhouse. He shouldn't have lied straight to the face of the man that signs his checks. He shouldn't have allowed Bonds' posse to infiltrate the Bell and attempt to spread steroids beyond Bonds and the Balco Boys. As a Giants fan, it's disgusts me to read those stories about Sabean passing the buck to Stan. Stan has no responsibility managing the goings on inside the clubhouse. I'm not saying Sabean *should* be taking the heat for the steroids era either. But I sincerely HOPE he lies in front of Congress and gets caught and spends a few months behind bars and frees the Giants from the biggest hinderance. I wouldn't feel bad one bit. It's obvious to me he a slimy human being. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is also a GM's job to delegate power. Like hiring a manager to manage the team and the clubhouse. And maybe having Stan Conte talk to Bonds, someone who he probably had daily contact with and respected, was better than Sabean talking to him directly as he is someone who is not in the clubhouse daily. Maybe he felt his involvement in talking to Bonds directly would not be accepted well. So to keep things somewhat stable, he tried to have a respected member of the clubhouse speak with him. He has been terrible in his personnel decisions and should be gone for those reasons. But he should not take the fall for this.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Toolrulzz)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:46:31 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452318,from=rss#post452318https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452318,from=rss#post452318The only reason Sabean was mentioned in the Mitchell report was because Bonds was on the team. I like every other Giants fan wants Sabean gone for the reasons he should be gone, but jail time on him for something every GM in baseball is guilty for is not what I would want. nondisclosed_email@example.com (TheMalcontent)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:30:54 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452317,from=rss#post452317https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452317,from=rss#post452317quote:Toolrulzz wrote: Like many I have been extremely unhappy with almost all of Brian Sabean's personnel decisions over the last 4 or 5 years. But what did most of you want or expect him to do in his situation? Be the only person to out a suspected steroid user and lose all credibility in the clubhouse and front office and alienate the person most responsible for the success of the Giants during their nice run a few years back? Selig is the one who should be receiving the bulk of the negative attention. And it is pretty convenient for him not to back Sabean and to let him get run over. Sabean deserves the blame for a lot of things but how some here and in congress can try and pin this on him is border line ridiculous. This isn't about Sabean "outing" Bonds. This is about him taking control over the Major League Baseball team he was hired to run. I'm not saying he should have called up Bud* and said, "Hey, I've got Bonds doing 'roid over here." I'm saying he shouldn't have been a fucking spineless prick and tried to get Conte--the facking trainer--to try and take control of the clubhouse. He shouldn't have lied straight to the face of the man that signs his checks. He shouldn't have allowed Bonds' posse to infiltrate the Bell and attempt to spread steroids beyond Bonds and the Balco Boys. As a Giants fan, it's disgusts me to read those stories about Sabean passing the buck to Stan. Stan has no responsibility managing the goings on inside the clubhouse. I'm not saying Sabean *should* be taking the heat for the steroids era either. But I sincerely HOPE he lies in front of Congress and gets caught and spends a few months behind bars and frees the Giants from the biggest hinderance. I wouldn't feel bad one bit. It's obvious to me he a slimy human being.nondisclosed_email@example.com (chefjuan)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:05:26 +0000 Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452316,from=rss#post452316https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452316,from=rss#post452316The bottom line truth is that 1) no, the Giants weren't the only team that looked the other way, but 2) they were the only team that was mentioned in the Mitchell Report. That means they are going to have to suffer the consequences. Unfortunately, that's the way it goes. Bud can't go around punishing all the teams even though most of them had players outed in the report. Sabes and Magowan were the two mentioned, didn't do anything about it, and are going to have to pay the piper. It's not really about what would anyone else have done or whether it was right or wrong. I'm 99% positive in my mind that all the other GMs looked the other way too. It's part of the baseball/pro sports culture. What happened in the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse. I have no doubt everyone else did the same thing.nondisclosed_email@example.com (barrance)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:48:07 +0000 Re: …https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452315,from=rss#post452315https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452315,from=rss#post452315quote:Bhaakon wrote: I think the thing with Sabean isn't that he knew about the steroid use, it's that he was unlucky enough to have a person with ethical standards around to blow the whistle. If they'd just gotten Pierzynski a few seasons earlier, there would have been someone around to keep Conte's mouth shut. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/16/SPGRUFL8I.DTL http://www.mercurynews.com/giantsheadlines/ci_7984920 The fallout continues. I can't see how Selig can't do something, a fine, a suspension, even call for someone's firing. My guess is that Congress and Selig will want somebody head from management. I don't think Selig can go after Peter but Sabean might be fair game. Also, what happens if Sabean is asked to go in front of Congress next month. Wouldn't that be interesting. Just sayin'nondisclosed_email@example.com (22TheThrill)Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:33:53 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452308,from=rss#post452308https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452308,from=rss#post452308Ehhh I'm retarded, of course it was Victor considering Stan Conte has been gone for only a short time. Never mind my previous post.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Toolrulzz)Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:29:01 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452307,from=rss#post452307https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452307,from=rss#post452307So the Trucoat salesman turned steroid crusader is reviewing possible punishment for Giants ownership and management for the manner they allegedly handled steroid concerns in their clubhouse. If you look beyond the obvious fact that Bud Selig lacks the moral high ground to be dispensing any discipline for inaction in this matter, the Giants named are the logical targets for taking baseball management’s hit on the steroid issue. By abandoning the cover Senator Mitchell provided in his recommendation that Selig not pursue disciplinary action against players for past transgressions, Selig has made it necessary to scapegoat selected ownership groups and management personnel to keep things fair. Magowan went off the reservation years ago by publicly financing the new ballpark in San Francisco, shunning the accepted and Selig endorsed practice of MLB teams fleecing local taxpayers to pay for stadiums. By doing so he abandoned any cover the other owners might provide in this matter, and his ties to Barry Bonds and BALCO tie up the package nicely for Selig. It allows Bud to claim that while he was doing everything he could to wipe out steroids in baseball, there were certain undermining ownership groups and management personnel that were letting him down by condoning drug use in their club houses and not letting him know there was a problem. One might argue that voiding the steroid clause in the multi-million contract signed by the Yankees with a former A’s player caught up in BALCO may have been condoning steroid use, but this is an easier case to make for the commish with no political baggage. Good luck Pete. nondisclosed_email@example.com (billabong2)Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:26:56 +0000 Re: Congress and the SF Giantshttps://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452306,from=rss#post452306https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452306,from=rss#post452306Lol.........Was there really that much love lost between Stan Conte and the Giants or were you referring to Victor?nondisclosed_email@example.com (Toolrulzz)Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:23:48 +0000 https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452304,from=rss#post452304https://boardsfgiantsfans.runboard.com/p452304,from=rss#post452304I think the thing with Sabean isn't that he knew about the steroid use, it's that he was unlucky enough to have a person with ethical standards around to blow the whistle. If they'd just gotten Pierzynski a few seasons earlier, there would have been someone around to keep Conte's mouth shut. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Bhaakon)Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:22:25 +0000